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ICYMI: Release to Production

The phrase “release to production” conjures a very specific set of thoughts and even emotions for folks who live, breath, and work with technology. Some of those thoughts and feelings are positive, while others are fraught with conflict. At the same time, those of us who are active in our religious community experience a different kind of “release to production” – releasing our children to the production environment of our faiths, whether that is teaching abroad, missionary work, or adult religious education that takes our young adult across the globe. And like our IT-based production release experiences, we watch our kids transition into chaotic systems, where parental observability is minimal even as the probability of encountering unknown-unknown error types grows. In this episode, Leon and Josh to look at what our IT discipline can teach us about how to make this phase of the parental production cycle easier.

Leon: 00:00 Welcome to our podcast where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We’re not here to preach or teach you our religion. We’re here to explore ways we make our career as IT professionals mesh or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious.

Josh: 00:21 The phrase release to production causes a very specific set of thoughts and even emotions for folks who live, breathe and work with technology. Some of those thoughts and feelings are positive while others are fraught with conflict. At the same time, those of us who are active in our religious community experience a different kind of release to production. Releasing our children to the production environment of our faiths, whether that is teaching abroad missionary work or adult religious education that takes our young adults across the globe and like our it based production release experiences. We watch our kids transition and to chaotic systems, where parental observability is minimal, even as the probability of encountering unknown, unknown error types grows. In this episode, we’re going to look at what our IT discipline can teach us about how to make this phase of parental production cycle easier. I’m Josh Biggley and the other voice you’re going to hear on this episode is Leon Adato.

Leon: 01:19 Hello everyone.

Josh: 01:20 Hey Leon. Um, so as we always start our podcasts, uh, let’s do a little shameless self promotion if you don’t mind.

Leon: 01:27 I, I never mind shameless anything and self-promotion either. So, uh, I’m Leon Adato as you said, I’m a Head Geek at SolarWinds. Uh, you can find me on the Twitters @LeonAdator. I also blog and pontificate on my website And my particular religious worldview is Orthodox Jewish.

Leon: 01:52 Fantastic. And for those who are new to our podcast, I’m Josh Biggley. I’m a Senior Engineer of Enterprise Monitoring. You can find me on the twitters, um, @jbiggley. You can find my faith transitions community at, where you will be redirected to our Facebook group. Um, I am currently a post Mormon transitioning into being an ex Mormon. That’s where we start. So, uh, Leon, we’ve both had some, uh, some challenges, um, that I think have precipitated where we’re at with this particular episode.

Leon: 02:28 Yes.

Josh: 02:28 Um, and as we were having the discussion, I was thinking I do love poetry. Uh, I mean, uh, it’s a wonderful thing. I, I found a poem by Robert Burns is from 1786, uh, entitled “To a Mouse”. And I, I’d love to, I’d love to have someone else read a portion of that because you know, the, to get the Robert Burns from 1786 just right, uh, is important. So let’s listen to that now before we begin.

Poetry Reading: 03:00 [Thick Scottish Brogue accent].

Poetry Reading: 03:00 But Mousie, thou art no thy-lane, In proving foresight may be vain: The best laid schemes o’ Mice an’ Men Gang aft agley, An’ lea’e us nought but grief an’ pain, For promis’d joy!

New Speaker: 03:17 All right. So I love that particular, uh, part of the poem, you know, this, uh, Robert Burns wrote this poem, um, after plowing a field. And, uh, as he was going along, he noticed that he tore up the, the den, uh, of a mouse and, and that caused him to reflect on it and write this poem. And for us, we have these, these plans that we lay out, we, and we spend so much time invested in them and then the chaos of the world grabs a hold of them and tears apart.

Leon: 03:53 Right. And there’s a few things I like about this that first of all, the poetry is, is heart stopping. It’s just amazing. And, um, but I also like the fact that Robert Burns was plowing his field. He was doing a very normal sort of work-based activity and yet he was also bringing his other, I’ll use the word higher, I don’t mean it in any sort of, you know, uh, value statement way, but he was using a more thoughtful part of himself to it. You know, how many people are mowing lawn or you know, just walking through, you know, a cut through and they knock over it, you know, a nest of some kind or whatever and it’s like, yeah, whatever, and you know, move on. But here, this really obviously caused him some real introspection. And I think that that is a wonderful analog to, uh, what we do as people with a religious, moral or ethical point of view as we go through our it lives is that we, we don’t divorce one from the other. And that sometimes moments within our regular work day lives cause us this, this reflection. I think it’s important to, to clarify that when we talk about releasing to production, you know, tongue in cheek, because we’re talking about our kids. This isn’t just, you know, kids going off to college or getting a job or growing up, although it is those things. But it’s particular to folks who live a, who live in a faith-based lifestyle. Um, you know, there’s some very specific things that I think our kids do that kids from a more secular background don’t. For example, uh, you know, my kids went to either yeshiva or seminary after high school, you know, or going to go, or in the process of going. And you’ll hear more about that later. Um, you know, that’s, uh, one or two or three years of purely religious education, not indoctrination. It’s, you know, real deep dive into the, um, philosophy, theology, you know, asking a lot of questions, challenging the thinking that they’d grown up with learning the rest of the story kind of stuff. And there’s also, you know, depending on your faith, there’s mission work, there’s a student exchange programs, there’s teaching abroad, there’s, you know, gap year programs, all of which send our kids away. But not, again, not in the way that I think at least I think of a secular experience, what my secular experience was, which was you graduated from high school, you went to college, uh, or maybe a trade school or whatever it is, and you got a job and, and you had your life. But that’s not really what we’re talking about. We’re talking about really releasing to a different kind of production system.

Josh: 06:38 You know, and it’s interesting, I find that a lot of people are starting to embrace this. Maybe alternative — is that the right word for it?

New Speaker: 06:47 It is. Yeah. It’s another option that I think wasn’t considered by our parents when we were growing up. If you happen to be of a certain age.

Josh: 06:56 Yeah. When my daughter graduated from high school last year, she was not the only person in her graduating class who was taking a gap year and who was doing something during that gap year. Going to work during gap here, you hear about that a lot, but taking that gap here and doing what my daughter did, which was go to Haiti, um, during the, you know, period of civil unrest that was going on, that was, that was interesting.

Leon: 07:28 My son…

Leon: 07:30 It might have been interesting for her, but I’m sure it was interesting in a whole different way for you and your wife.

Josh: 07:35 It was uh, uh, we should talk about that in the future. It was a, it was a very, yes. Interesting is a good word for it. You know, and my son is a, is my son is on a mission right now. He comes home in a couple of weeks, which we’re super excited about, but I, a bunch of kids took, took a year off, you know, one went to France, one went to Brazil as part of the Rotary Exchange program. So I, I’m courageous. I’m, I’m excited for this future generation in my graduating class, which wasn’t nearly as large as my daughters. I think I had 45 or 50 kids in my graduating class, but I was the only one who was going off to do something other than go to college or university or go to work. So I, it is, it is a very unique thing that we have because of our faith. There’s a problem here though, and I, I, I do want to talk about this. So, you know, having grown up, um, having grown up Mormon, in fact, we just had some friends, uh, some friends, uh, uh, family members of friends, I guess is the right way to put it. Who stopped by unexpectedly and they said, “Oh, by the way, we know your son Noah, you know. We’re from Utah. Here’s how we know Noah. We met him while he was there.” And so we got to talking about their family and they said to us, “Well, our son is, is and has just proposed to his, his girlfriend, they’re going to get married.” Well, when you’re a Mormon, you know that at 18 you become eligible to go on a mission. And so we said, oh, he didn’t serve a mission. Now this, this couple doesn’t know that we’re no longer practicing Mormons. And you could just, you could see that just that flicker of disappointment in their eyes because, uh, there’s that. “Yeah, we’re from Utah and we know that our kids are supposed to go.” So Leon, let’s talk about what happens when, when we spend our entire lives trying to launch our children with their support…

Leon: 09:36 right.

Josh: 09:37 …into, into a specific path and the T-minus plan fails.

Leon: 09:43 Right. And, and I liked your phrasing. You know that it’s a launch plan and T-Minus, and you know, remember that the, the astronauts in the capsule are not unwilling participants in this. They’re, they’re just as engaged in trajectory and speed and velocity. They may not be the final arbiter of some of those things, but they are absolutely involved in those plans in our kids. While they may not be the, the final arbiter of how they get where they’re going or how quickly they get where they’re going or whatever, they’re active participants in helping plot the course. Um, so I like, I just liked the phrasing. I think that’s really good. And Yeah, let’s talk about when things don’t go. So, I think that if things don’t go as planned, uh, the first question, at least that I’m thinking is, “Did I, you know, was this a failure on my part to plan at all, you know, correctly, appropriately? What did I miss?” I, I think that that’s, as a parent maybe sometimes your first go to what, what did I do wrong? You know?

Josh: 10:46 I think that makes you a good parent.

Leon: 10:49 Oh, really? Good. Really good. I know,

New Speaker: 10:57 No doubt.

Leon: 10:58 Um, yeah, but if that is the one criteria that the self doubt, then absolutely I have, I have piles and piles of good parenting. Yeah.

Josh: 11:09 Well, and I think that’s important though when we look at our, when we look at our children and we try to ask ourselves, why didn’t things go to plan? We immediately look at ourselves mostly because we can, we can change ourselves. We can’t change our children. We can sit them down and we can lecture them for hours on end, but about 15 minutes and they’re just going to stop listening. You know? I…

New Speaker: 11:35 If you get that much, that’s where.

Josh: 11:36 I was. I was hoping for a good day. Uh, yeah. I, I love the phrase “Analysis Paralysis”. It’s something that I hear an awful lot at work, especially as we’re using all the Buzz Word Bingo, key phrases, right? Agile and DevOps. And I’ve heard a new one the other day DevSecOps and I’m like, now we’re just making upwards. It’s great.

Leon: 11:59 If you’re playing along at home. Right? And you haven’t downloaded the beat. You can download the Bingo card from

Josh: 12:06 Um, but I, I think that we can get to that point where we look at sort of the look at our lives and the lives of our children. We expect them to do with some very rigid things.

Josh: 12:15 And when they don’t, w things start to fall apart. We doubt ourselves. We doubt our children. To me, that feels a disingenuous to the art of raising children. Going back to, you know, to the Bible, right? Cain and Abel, uh, you know, Adam and eve have these two kids can enable, you know, great kids grew up while together. And then, you know, one day Cain kills Abel. Did, did Adam and Eve, you know, did they see that coming? Or they’re like, “What do we do wrong?”

Leon: 12:42 Right.

Josh: 12:45 “Geez, maybe we shouldn’t have left the garden!?!” Uh, you know,

Leon: 12:49 [Laughter] Maybe that, yeah, that was, that was an unplanned, that was, that was its own, you know, production, early release to production issue. Yep.

Leon: 12:57 Um, here’s…

Josh: 12:58 That’s what happens when, when Alpha goes to prod, although it worked out really well, so…

Leon: 13:03 Yeah, well, it can, but it also can not. Um, and there’s even, there’s even a question there, just if we’re going to invoke Cain and Able that, that, um, Cain may not have understood. Look, Abel was the first person to die at all. He may not have understood that killing was a thing. Um, and in the original Hebrew, uh, the precursor to that moment is they were out in the fields and Cain said to Abel “And Cain rose up and slew Abel” There’s, there’s a missing, there’s no texts there. Now as, uh, a person with two brothers. I can tell you with absolute certainty that I know I have a good, I could make some good guesses about what Cain said to Abel, that would cause Cain to lash out. You know, it caused that conflict to occur. Um, however, we don’t have textual, uh, textual evidence of it. But the point is, is that, um, again, that probably wasn’t, uh, Adam and Chava, to use the Hebrew names. Um, wasn’t their plan for, uh, what their kids were gonna grow up to be or to do. Um,

Josh: 14:27 What, what about, what about the attributes of our children though?

Leon: 14:30 Yeah.

Josh: 14:30 I mean, oftentimes we look at our kids and we want to see the very best than them, but if our kids don’t follow our plan, and I will admit, I am one of those kids that did not follow my parent’s plan. In fact, uh, after I got home from Las Vegas, I explicitly things to, uh, I want to say to make my parents upset. But when my parents said, don’t do, I, I went ahead and did it. So when they said, hey, you know, you shouldn’t get married at 21, I was like, no, I’m getting married at 21. Hey, you shouldn’t go. You know, you should not go to a school, um, to do that. Oh yeah, no, I’m going to go to school and I’m going to work full time. Uh, I mean, we’re going to tell the story a little later, but it’s just, does that mean that word? Well, what does that mean about our kids? What, what does that mean about me? I’m, I’m gonna lay it down on the couch now. And you can tell me.

Leon: 15:24 Right. So I think there’s a, there’s two aspects of that. First of all, um, I think as parents we also put way too much stock in this moment. This is the formative moment. If I don’t get this right as a parent, it’s all downhill from there. Leon, she’s going into kindergarten. I know, but it’s everything hinges on her getting into the right kindergarten and her learning her abcs, she was slow to walk. You know, we have to make up for that! I think she’s gonna do play time just fine. You know, I, I think that sometimes we, we forget that, you know, as much as we have recovered from, you know, setbacks and failures, both big and small and our lives, our kids are going to also, and, uh, there’s, you know, and the hard part is because we’re sort of passive observers of it, there’s a quote, um, Elizabeth Stone said it, uh, “Making the decision to have a child. It is momentous. It is to decide forever to have your heart go walking around outside your body.” And I think that sums up not just the experience of parenting for, for some folks, but also the, the level of pressure that I think that we, we feel we put upon ourselves that, you know, again, that kindergarten moment has to be perfect because it’s my heart there that you’re dealing with. But the fact is is that our kids are far more resilient than an internal organ. Um, usually, mostly mostly, at least I choose. So that’s the first piece. I think the second piece is they are often more capable than we recognize because when we see them, we see the totality of our experience with, with them from their first moments until this moment. And we, we experience all of those at the same time. So it’s hard to remember that the person standing before you now is a relatively capable near adult depending on how old they are, who is tougher than most of the times we give them credit for being simply because we’re also seeing them in diapers as we are watching them drive away in the car. Um, so I think, I think those two things are always at work in the head of a, in the head of a parent as there again, quote unquote launching their child. Um, I think there’s another though that that comes up, at least for me, when things don’t go according to plan, which is, you know, I begin to wonder after I’ve doubted myself, I begin to doubt my kid. Does it mean that they weren’t committed, that they gave up too easily? Um, you know, nobody wants a snowflake millennial for a child. Uh, even if our children millennial, we certainly don’t want them to be un-resilient. Um, or worse, we worry that maybe they’re not taking it seriously or even worse than that, that their being utterly dismissive and disrespectful to our effort. Not to mention our money. Like, yeah, whatever, you know, they’re sending me halfway across the world, but I can always come back. It’s no big deal. They got, they can cover it.

Josh: 18:33 Right, right, they’ve got the platinum card. Right.

Leon: 18:35 Right, right. It’s just money. So you know, and you’ve spent months, you know, trying to get the, you know, doing the school paperwork and doing the, like you’ve done all that stuff and all of a sudden it doesn’t, doesn’t go as you expected it to. And you know, there’s a lot of those feelings that sort of swirl around.

Josh: 18:55 Yeah. I, I do want to address something about kindergarten. So my daughter is starting university this week in kindergarten. So in Ontario there was junior kindergarten. She was three and a half when she started because her birthday is later in the year. She almost got kicked out of kindergarten because she would not talk and she refused to leave her little cubby where she hung her coat. She would sit in that and would not participate. And the school called us and said, hey, like maybe this isn’t the right thing for her. Maybe, maybe she shouldn’t be at school right now. This, this is the girl who hopped on a plane and flew to Haiti. This is the girl who when they said, we might have to send you home from Haiti because you know, there’s civil unrest. There is literally writing in the streets. It was like, no, no, no, I’m not going. And now she’s headed off to university and I would have never imagined it. So yes, my daughter was a snowflake in junior kindergarten. I get it.

Leon: 20:04 [laughing]

Josh: 20:06 …because they don’t stay that way.

New Speaker: 20:07 Yeah. And psychologists will call that a telescoping. When you look at your three year old who’s eating paste and saying, oh, it’s never gonna. And it’s like, no, don’t telescope. It’s okay. The fact that they do it now doesn’t mean that they’re always doing it. Or as another great parenting educator, Barbara Coloroso said, um, “I’ve never yet seen a high school senior walk down the graduation aisle with the shoes on the wrong feet unless it was on purpose.” You don’t need to tell your kids to put the shoes on the right feet. They can figure that part out for themselves.

Josh: 20:40 I, I, so I have, I have another story. If you know when you have lots of children. I have four. When you have lots of children, you have lots stories. Yes. I have a son who suffers from the, how did we put it? “Anything is possible when you don’t know what you’re doing”-itis.

Leon: 20:59 Right. I’ve worked for managers who suffer from it also. So it’s a fairly common uh, affliction.

Josh: 21:04 Yeah. It, it’s, it’s surprising and to, to be fair, part of the, the beauty of youth is that you have no sweet clue what you can’t do because you’ve never tried to do it. But some times the things that you’re trying to do are so wonderfully outlandish that you probably should not do them. I…in my own life, I wanted to be a lawyer. In fact, I still would love to be a lawyer. That whole going to school for four years and then having to go to law school for two or three years and then having to article for another three or four years just does not appeal to me. I go figure, I kind of like making money, uh, and, and eating.

Leon: 21:50 I was going to say, it’s not the money part, it’s the eating steady part you become kind of addicted to.

Josh: 21:56 I have. I have, yeah. My, my waistline can attest to that. So all, all through high school I was planning on being a lawyer. So I got to my, my senior year and in Ontario at the time. You went to grade 13 which was a college, a university prep year. So as I’m entering my, my university prep here, my guidance counselor calls me in and says, Hey, you know Josh, I’m looking at your, your transcript, you’ve got all the IT courses that we offer and you know, what do you plan on doing? I said, well, I’m going to be a lawyer. So good, but if that doesn’t work out, maybe I’ll do IT. And he said, well, you know, you really need to take math. I said, no, no, no. I got all the math credits I need. I, as I look, I know I’m going to be a lawyer. I would not be on this podcast if I was a lawyer.

Leon: 22:53 True. True. As much as I, as much as I have, I enjoy our friendship. It wouldn’t be that it wouldn’t be Technically Religious anymore.

Josh: 23:00 That’s right. Yeah. It would just be awkward at that point. So I mean, I did it the hard way. I, I didn’t take math. I’m also, although I like math now, I did not like math in high school. I was a little hesitant to admit to liking math, but I do like math and I really struggled. I mean, I wanted to be in IT as my backup plan. I didn’t realize it was going to become my primary plan, but I really hated math and I hated the math learning experience.

Leon: 23:35 Sure. So I just want to, I want to frame some of this, you know, talking about your son and, um, you know, his belief that he can do anything, even if he doesn’t have sort of the basic background, I think is a good analog to you wanting to be in IT and not liking math. But I think that lots of folks who are in it come at it from different directions. We know that. And, uh, math can be a challenge. And I think that there’s sort of three ways that you can look at addressing it. Like, how do we address problems in IT? So there’s sort of the, the easy way, which is to learn everything about that problem. Right. I know that sounds like the hard way, but learning it upfront is actually the easy way. Whether you’re going to a vendor course or you’re taking a training class or whatever it is, learning it, you know, from start to finish in that order is the easy way. The hardware is actually learning as you go, you know, and trying to do at school of hard knocks and you know, crashing it and rebuilding it and crashing and rebuilding it and you know, not knowing what you don’t know and finding out six months later that you actually spec’ed the systems incorrectly and you have to go back to your director and ask for more money because you did it wrong the first time or whatever. Like all that, that is the hard way to go. I think there’s a, there’s a smart way to go, which is using tools to compensate for our gaps and knowing that, having humility to know when to use those. So, uh, you know, for example, uh, I’m, I’m, I like networking and I am fairly good at networking, but like Cisco Nexus devices are a whole other class of networking that was not there when I initially got my CCNA and Routing and Switching and, uh, trying to manage your monitor those devices is really challenging. But there’s, there are tools that can show me what’s wrong with a Nexus installation so that I can get past those gaps in knowledge and skill and experience without the hard knocks and without having to take, you know, three months of classes just to get up to speed on it.

Josh: 25:47 Hmm. Interesting. Uh, I, I am also afraid of, uh, of the Nexus. It, it, to me, I see one of those large spaghetti, horrible monsters with a billion arms. And that’s all I can think of when I think of an axis.

Leon: 26:01 Right. It’s the not invisible flying spaghetti monster. Yep.

Josh: 26:04 Not Invisible at all. It’s actually kind of horrifying. Uh, so if, if we were to then like, maybe modify this for people like me. Yep. Um, how would I handle this today? What would the advice be to Josh from 1995-ish?

Leon: 26:24 Yeah. Right.

Josh: 26:25 Oh Dang. I’m old. …from 1995-ish.

Leon: 26:30 [Laughter].

Josh: 26:30 And explain how, how I can be successful in it. Um, even though I didn’t like math.

Leon: 26:38 Okay. So I think that, um, again, easy way, hard way, smart way. The easy to go learn it. Now, part of the problem is that you didn’t have the math credits in high school to get into a school immediately that had it, you know, like you couldn’t have hacked the coursework. Um, but you know, in America we have, you know, community colleges, sort of those smaller local colleges that are easier to get into. And a great way to get a leg up on stuff is just to take a community college set of community college courses one or two years and get into it and get those skills up and then transition to a more, um, challenging school where you’re gonna get the depth experience.

Josh: 27:21 Oh, nice. Yeah. So, and in Canada we call those a two and two. Right? So you do a two year of college and the Canada college is different than university and then there is a matriculation agreement where you can get into usually third year, um, provided that you successfully completed the coursework in the first two years.

Leon: 27:40 Right. So that’s, that would be the easy way. The hard way would be not to go to college at all and not to get any training, but just to open your own IT business and uh, learn as you go, you know, break things as you go and probably fail that business and then you get into IT. Having had all that wonderful painful experience, that would be the hard way. Right?

Josh: 28:06 Yeah. I, I did it kind of that way. I mean, I didn’t start a business, but I got married at 21 had an instant family, was, my wife was pregnant a month later I went to school, worked midnights, um, and then got a job working 60 hours a week while trying to get my MCSE. Is that hard?

Leon: 28:24 Okay. That’s, there’s hard and then there’s heart failure.

Josh: 28:28 Okay.

Leon: 28:28 And that’s, yeah.

Josh: 28:30 Okay. Heart, heart failure. It is then!

Leon: 28:31 One order of myocardial infarction please. Coming up! Yeah. So yeah, that’s, that would have been the really hard way. Um, and some of us do that and I think that there’s, again, the smart way that in between way, which is, um, as much as we say that IT requires math, it doesn’t require all math. It requires a very specific set of math that if you take a little bit of time to understand the area of IT you want to get into, then you can focus on just learning the math you need for that area. Right.

Josh: 29:09 I’m a, I’m a big fan of that model. I wish that my 18 year old self could have a discussion with my 40 (ahem!) year old self and I could say, look, you can do this now. I get it when I was 18, things like Khan Academy or, uh, you know, Code Camp didn’t exist. But wow, kids today, if, if you know the thing that you want, the thing that gets you really excited about math and it’s not going and taking trigonometry then learn the math that gets you geeked. For me it’s statistics. I really love stats.

Leon: 29:46 Right. And I think that that’s another thing that, um, you know, the difference between non young adult, our non young adult kids is that, you know, what are they gonna have to do this Algebra?!? Because it’s ninth grade curriculum and you’re going to do it. I don’t have another answer. This, this is stupid. I’m never gonna use it. Can’t argue for or against that, but it’s still in a curriculum and you’re going to do it like that is the parenting conversation. But with our young adults, we can say, look, if you love this thing, if you love doing this thing, whether it’s it or business or whatever, there’s going to be math involved. But you just have to learn that. But if you love this thing, you’re going to love the math that goes along with it. And if you don’t love it, at least you’re going to tolerate it. So being monitoring Geeks, both you and I, you know, math is also not my strong suit. It’s not something that I naturally gravitate toward the way that some of the other voices we have on the show, like Doug, you know, Doug Johnson who really does love math, you know, that’s, that’s a different, that’s a different thing that love of pure math. But I really enjoy the math that I get to do when I’m scripting, when I’m pulling statistics out of devices for monitoring, when I’m building new visualizations. That math really gets me going because I know what I’m doing with it because it has an application. Um, so that’s, you know, that’s what we can say to our adult or young adult kids is even if you think you don’t like it from school, “Uhhh, it really bad!” The fact is that you will like it because it’s part of the thing that you’re telling me that you like,

Leon: 31:25 We know you can’t listen to our podcast all day. So out of respect for your time, we’ve broken this particular conversation up, come back next week and we’ll continue our conversation.

Doug Johnson: 31:34 Thanks for making time for us this week to hear more of technically religious visit our website, technically where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect to us on social media.

Leon: 31:47 Test in dev?! Not me! I test in prod!! What can possibly go wrong?

Josh: 31:54 Narrator: Apparently, a lot. Nobody was surprised.

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