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S1E7 – Opposing As We Follow

In religion (and the religion of IT), we often find ourselves accepting the majority of the dogma while having to choose to reject the minority. In this episode, Josh, Doug, and Leon talk about how to support something that you disagree with because it’s just part of a larger system that is mostly good. Listen or read the transcript below:

Leon: 00:00 Hey everyone, it’s Leon. Before we start this episode, I wanted to let you know about a book I wrote. It’s called “The Four Questions Every Monitoring Engineer is Asked,” and if you like this podcast, you’re going to love this book. It combines 30 years of insight into the world of it with wisdom gleaned from Torah, Talmud, and Passover. You can read more about it, including where you can get a digital or print copy over on Thanks.

Josh: 00:25 Welcome to Technically Religious, where we talk about the interesting, frustrating and inspiring experiences we have as people with strongly held religious views working in corporate IT. We’re not here to preach or teach you our religion. We’re here to explore ways we make our career as IT professionals mesh, or at least not conflict with our religious life. This is Technically Religious.

Leon: 00:48 So tell me, what do you think the hardest part of your job is?

Josh: 00:54 You know, when I lived in Las Vegas, a retired LAPD gang squad detective that I knew, I think he said it best, he said, In order to be in leadership, you have to tell people how to go to hell and have a good time getting there.”

Doug: 01:08 Wait, what does that even mean?

Josh: 01:10 Well, I think that it means that sometimes to lead, well, you have to tell people things that they don’t want to hear, but you have to do it in a way where they don’t hate you or hate the process.

Leon: 01:21 Okay. And that takes us into our conversation for today, which is, opposing something even as you are a part of it. Even as you follow it. What we’re going to talk about is where the majority of the thing that you’re in, your work, your religion, the club you’re in, most of it you like, it’s good, but there are certain elements that you absolutely can’t stand. It is wrong, wrong, wrong. So how do we as good IT people, as good practitioners of our faith as good members of our family – How do we oppose something while still being part of it, rather than just rage quitting. So that’s the topic for today.

Josh: 02:09 Well, I’m going to oppose the fact that we’ve started this podcast without introducing Doug.

Leon: 02:15 Oh, right, sorry, everyone, uh, sound off

Josh: 02:18 Josh Biggley

Doug: 02:20 Doug Johnson

Leon: 02:22 and I’m Leon Adato. Thank you. Okay, good. That… See? So sometimes opposition can be good, and be done respectfully. Right?

Josh: 02:28 Well, you know, I, I if you’ve been on the Internet lately, I think that they would disagree. I’m just going to say that Reddit and every comment on every article I’ve ever read says that you have to oppose by burning down the world.

Leon: 02:43 Right? Right. They would oppose the idea that you can oppose something respectfully.

Josh: 02:47 Absolutely.

Doug: 02:47 Yeah. It seems like, but it seems like what they’re doing is by burning down the world, they’re burning down the very thing that they want to preserve. It drives me crazy that people are just like, “Let’s just go and destroy this thing cause I hate this part of it. So I’m going to ruin everything for everybody.”

Leon: 03:04 Everybody. Right. And, and Doug, just a little background for the listeners that don’t know you really well, you, um, the way you described yourself to me first is best, uh, Steve Martin once said that, “two years of philosophy is enough to screw up anybody.” And you’ve had four.

Doug: 03:18 That is correct.

Leon: 03:18 So I can only imagine that some of the arguments that you see on the Internet are maddening for you.

Doug: 03:26 It can be and I’ve actually gotten off of all of the long form ones because I was tending to do too much real arguing. So by staying on Twitter, I’ve only got 140 characters to go ahead and make my point to be really succinct to tell people what idiots they ar… sorry, to tell people that they’re thinking maybe not quite as tight as it should be.

Leon: 03:50 Right, exactly. Okay, good. Um, so I think we should probably talk about, um, some for instances, you know, when we talk about being part of something but opposing, um, so let’s start off in IT. What are some examples in the world of it where you might oppose something but you know, again, not want to burn the entire building down.

Josh: 04:09 I was going to say a cloud versus on prem, but that feels like a burn the building down. So I avoided that one

Leon: 04:17 Well, and I’d say why not both, right? I mean, you know, hybrid IT is a thing. So you don’t, you don’t have to, I mean not, not that anybody ever asked for it. Uh, but you know, it’s still a thing. So I don’t feel like that’s, I was thinking more of things like just generally speaking, design choices. There are times in our lives as IT professionals where someone makes a particular design choice. No, we’re not going to have redundant switches here. We’re, you know, going to go with RAID 5 not, you know, solid state storage or RAID 10 or whatever where you’re like, this is wrong. This is a bad, bad idea. And yet for whatever reason we can’t afford it. We’re not going to do it. We don’t see the reason for it. For whatever reason, the design goes ahead as planned. And you just have to sit there and say, oh, oh, okay, but this is wrong.

Doug: 05:05 And are we thinking wrong here though? Or, or like religious choices, like for instance, PHP versus python.

Leon: 05:14 So

Doug: 05:15 Well no, I mean I’ve just, I’ve seen this of arguments where teams can actually split on which way they should go with it because it becomes a religious war as a of the topic. I agree with you that, you know, I’ll work in any language even if I don’t know the language, I can learn the language. I’m not stupid. I’ve got 19 languages so far. I think I can learn another one. But I’ve seen teams that just get to logger heads over, you know, what languages are going to be used in different, like on the backend or something along that line.

Leon: 05:44 Right. I, and if you’re making a good point, which is there’s a difference between, “it’s not my preference” versus “it’s suboptimal” versus “this is actually not going to work.”

Doug: 05:56 So we’re talking about things where we actually believe it’s a bad idea and it’s not, it’s going to affect the project negatively. Very strong.

Leon: 06:04 Yeah. Yeah. So, so to give an example, and I’ll put it back in my own league, uh, I work at SolarWinds, I work with the SolarWinds tools and SolarWinds is very, very clear that their modules really need to be installed on a RAID 10 or better storage system. Do not install it on RAID 5. It’s in all the documentation. It’s everywhere. And yet in one particular organization who shall remain nameless, both the dbs and the storage team insisted that they were going to put it on RAID 5 because they had very, very, very fast disks and it’s going to be fine. That wasn’t the problem. But no matter what information I brought to them, it didn’t matter they were going to do RAID 5 one way or the other. They’re like, okay. And sure enough, three months into the implementation, the system wasn’t running correctly. It was more than just dog slow. It was failing, it was losing data, it was not performing the job it was supposed to perform. And as the conversation began to swirl around, “well maybe SolarWinds isn’t as good as it’s supposed to be.” It’s like, “No, you have it running on this… you’re running on the wrong platform. And as soon as we moved it to RAID 10, it worked the way it was supposed to. So that’s an example of standing in opposition. Like this is wrong, not just philosophically in my opinion, but wrong. Wrong.

Doug: 07:25 Got It. So when a situation like that, how do you oppose and, and…

Josh: 07:29 To go to Doug’s question, um, sometimes you, you have to oppose by just stating your opposition. So I had a, an instance I, in the past couple of weeks, my VP gave a recommendation to do something. Uh, and I, I sent an email back to my VP, my VP, and I don’t email directly often. Um, so for me that leap over my manager, my director and go straight to my VP was a bit of a, uh, uh, a taboo. Yeah. It was a leap. I running long jump actually.

Doug: 08:02 Over crocodiles with lasers because why not, right?

Leon: 08:09 Yup.

Josh: 08:10 And so I said to him, “Hey, I recognize that you’ve made these recommendations and I’m just wondering why, you know, what is it that you see in these recommendations versus the recommendations that I’ve made that, that you think is the right thing to do?” And and my director sent me an email. He’s like, “Hey, look, you know, if you’re going to oppose, you shouldn’t do it over email.” And I was like, “Oh, I, you know, I respect that. I didn’t realize that my opposition came across that way.” And so I, you know, I had to send an email to my VP and tell him, “Hey, look, I wasn’t being oppositional. I was really asking these questions because I wanted to know.” And so there are times when we, we don’t think that we’re being oppositional because we’re innately curious as engineers, we want to go in and find all the things and when we want to understand and wrap our heads around it. And I’m one of those people that if you tell me to go and sell a product and it sucks, my pitch is going to be, You should buy this product. It sucks. But if you don’t, I’m going to starve to death.”

Leon: 09:14 There’s your compelling sale.

Josh: 09:15 That’s it. That’s all I’ve got. I tried to sell vacuum cleaners, once. I lasted two days. So there you go.

Leon: 09:21 Got It. Okay. So, some other, some other for instances, uh, you know, open source versus commercial software is often an IT argument. Um, and again, sometimes like Doug said, it’s philosophical. I just liked this better, but sometimes it’s, “No the product that you’re talking about is going to be expensive and won’t do the job.” So there’s that. So let’s dovetail for a minute because we are technically religious here. Um, let’s talk about some points in religion where, uh, you know, whether it’s ourselves personally or things that we’ve seen that, that people tend to oppose or be an opposition to.

Josh: 09:58 Like religion in its entirety.

Doug: 10:01 There are those.

Leon: 10:03 So there are some people and it’s too bad that some of our members of technical sure aren’t here to chime in. But yeah, who just oppose the whole concept of faith based behavior in general. And that’s fine.

Josh: 10:14 It is, it’s totally cool.

Leon: 10:15 You know, we’re, we’re good with that. We do not oppose their opposition. Um, but uh,

Doug: 10:21 We will defend to the death your right to be stupid. I mean…

Leon: 10:27 Ohhh… Now I’m happy that our other members aren’t here because they would kill you with their pinky. So I was thinking, so an easy one to, to call out is sexuality. I think that lots of religions have as a basic tenant of faith, an opinion about sexuality, whom it can be between and how it should be performed and things like that. And I think that that many individuals, whether they embrace the religion as a whole, find themselves challenged with those faith-based opinions about, sexuality and relationships and things like that. That’s a, that’s a good example I think of of one.

Doug: 11:05 Yup. And also is a really good example of places where everybody continually falls down. Even while they go ahead and say that they believe this stuff.

Leon: 11:15 Right. And that takes you back to how to oppo… I mean, is the proper thing to oppose something like that? You know, I’ll be honest. You know, as, as an Orthodox Jew, you know, uh, Judaism, especially Orthodox Judaism is very, very clear about same sex relationships. It’s incredibly, you know, there’s no waffling about it at all. I stand in opposition to that, but I don’t really find myself agreeing. I also don’t find myself debating the point with my co-religionists very much because, you know, I just, again, it’s, it’s a fact on the ground in terms of the Orthodox Jewish religion.

Doug: 11:54 But in my case has an evangelical Christian. The same situation applies the all the tenets we pull in all the old, all the tenets from the Old Testament, and we add some more from the New Testament that says that it’s wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. And yet we have this religion that basically says, God takes you where you are and we’ll save you from anything. And, and, and if you look at all the lists, you know, Gossiping and Sodomy are actually put right next to each other.

Speaker 2: 12:27 Right.

Doug: 12:28 And yet we don’t have people saying, well, we can’t have any gossips in our church. I mean, yes, we say that, but honestly, we don’t shun them. And so I just see, I see situations where people in leadership are literally driving people away who frankly, you know, might do well to have the love of Christ in their life and whether they would at that point then turn away from their “sin”. I, you know, I, that’s not for me, it’s not my job to straighten that out, but I am opposed to us being so oppositional too, because we’re supposed to be there for everybody.

Josh: 13:05 So, you know, being, uh, being a, a post Mormon, an ex Mormo.. nah, a post Mormon because I technically still am Mormon. Um, as I had to explain to a family member today… they haven’t thrown me out yet, um, 15 years ago, um, I left Mormonism for about eight months over that very matter. Um, and when I, when we opted to return to the faith, um, we were actually disciplined for our views and the view was you cannot support gay marriage and be a member in good standing. And so we opted to just not go. Um, it’s not necessarily a stance that I would recommend for people. Um, you know, uh, your dying on a hill of gif versus jif. That’s one thing. Um,

Leon: 13:53 And that’s a hill I will die on.

Josh: 13:56 Right. Totally worth it. Um, there are some other things in life that just aren’t worth it and that’s what we, we ultimately decided is we weren’t willing to, uh, die the proverbial death on that hill. Um, oddly enough, you know, 15 years later I’m out anyway. So, um, I could have saved some time and money, I guess.

Leon: 14:15 Taking it back from sort of the nuclear option in religion there. I think there’s other things that people stand in opposition to, whether it’s a certain foods, whether they are or aren’t kosher. In my case, uh, Josh, you were telling me before about the Mormon position on, you know, caffeine caffeinated beverages.

Josh: 14:33 Yeah. So, uh, and, and Mormonism, there’s this concept of the word of wisdom and the word of wisdom says… It has a bunch of things that you shouldn’t partake of and there’s a bunch of things that you should do. And Mormons generally speaking, tend to focus on the things that you should not do – the prohibitions. And one of the prohibitions is around hot drinks. So hot drinks was later clarified to be coffee and tea. So now the question is, well if it was hot drinks and coffee and tea. What if I drink iced coffee or what if I have ice tea? And so when, when my parents were growing up, there was this whole thing that you can’t drink caffeine. And how we got from, you know, hot drinks to coffee and tea to caffeine, I’m not really sure, but today, uh, in Mormonism drinking caffeine is, um, is widely accepted. In fact, many of the church leaders have said, hey, it’s okay. So there were people who are super oppositional. In fact, I remember the exact moment in time when I tasted Dr Pepper for the very first time. I remember the wind, the sun felt in the school yard. I remember where I was standing. I, it was, it was almost transcendental. Um, so there are times in which opposing my parents and drinking Dr Pepper, uh, produced, uh, an, uh, a euphoric experience. It was, I still remember, and that was a long time ago.

Doug: 15:53 All hail Dr. Pepper.

Josh: 15:53 Right. All hail.

Leon: 15:55 That’s incredible. Okay. So we talked about some IT stuff and uh, we talked about some religious stuff I’d like to do for those listeners who understand SQL databases, this is the INNER JOIN ALL where religion and work or IT come together. Uh, we are things that people tend to feel very oppositional both within an IT and the, the religious content.

Doug: 16:18 Little Christmas decorations everywhere. Excuse me, HOLIDAY decorations everywhere that just happen to look just like all the Christmas decorations.

Leon: 16:28 As I did say to one HR person when they told me, “No, they’re not Christmas, the’yre holiday…” I said, “I do celebrate holidays around this time of year and nothing in my house looks like those!”

Doug: 16:37 Right. There’s not a single dreidle or menorah here anywhere. And even then, even if there were, you wouldn’t know what to do with them. So really,

Leon: 16:44 Nor was I asking, I am very much, you know, at work I’m very much like please include me out. Like I don’t, I don’t need your really bad attempt at trying to make this work. No, no, just I’m good.

Doug: 16:59 Well and, and I’m the same way, but I mean as a born again Christian, I’m supposed to love Christmas and frankly I hate the holiday cause it’s about everything that Christianity is not. So all of the stuff that goes up, it’s just like, it’s celebrating all of the wrong things as far as Christianity is concerned. I mean it, yeah, love and peace for all mankind. But honestly, no, that’s not what I mean. It ends up being everybody trying to

Leon: 17:29 “Get out of my parking spot I have five minutes to get…”

Doug: 17:33 Exactly and that’s my Tickle Me Elmo we’re both holding on to and I will kill you for it. I mean, really, come on. I’ve had pastors ask me why I’m so down on Christmas and then they’ll always regret having asked me cause I tell them.

Leon: 17:48 Right. So the other one that comes up and I swear to God, you know, hand over my heart, this happened. They were about to push code to production and before they did, the lead programmer said, “I just liked us all to sit and have a moment of prayer before we…” Like, no, no! I just… I get it. You know, it’s, it’s an extension of that joke: “as long as there are tests in schools, there will be prayer in schools also.” Like, it’s a very funny joke. It’s cute. It’s pithy. I get it. And yet I don’t believe that all of our code pushes should be accompanied with, you know, a quick psalm or two or whatever.

Doug: 18:29 The question is who are you praying to it? That particular one, since you’re pushing code, you should probably be praying to Satan and it’s going to be a better, I mean, let’s face it, he’s the one, he’s the one that’s in charge of all the IT projects, right?

Leon: 18:45 And, and we all know computers are tools of the devil. Right. Okay. So, uh, moving forward, you know, we have the our for instances. Doug I want to come back to your question one more time is that we find ourselves in opposition to this thing, whether it’s the people who were chosen to be on a project, you know, a project team or the design choice or my synagogue’s stance on a particular point of, of Jewish law or whatever. And I find that I am really in opposition to it. That one thing. Everything else? Basically good. So what are some healthy good ways to deal with it? Josh, you talked about, uh, sometimes just stating your opinion, but saying it in the right forum. Like what else do we got?

Josh: 19:28 Well, I, you know, I’m not sure that I have anything else other than just again reiterating that the importance of, uh, stating, stating the facts.I like to say the people at work don’t mess with the enterprise monitoring team because we have data. And so if you’re going to be oppositional, being oppositional because it’s the way that you feel about something technical? That doesn’t fly, at least not in my world. You can’t say to me, “Well, I know, I feel like this thing isn’t going to work because…” Give me the data. Right? Like you absolutely have to. You have to give me some data. And it can be someone else’s researched it. It can be actual empirical data. And don’t just pick and choose because you know, there’s a great saying about, uh, statistics, right? There’s three types of lives in the world, lies, damn lies and statistics. So don’t just give me your stats, let me see your source data and let me touch it and feel it and that. Um, but you know, if you’re going to oppose, oppose with intelligence, with intellect, um, don’t oppose, you know, with feeling because feeling is a good way to ask questions. And I think that asking questions is a very different thing from outright opposing unless you’re being super passive aggressive and then shame on you but you can ask questions without being confrontational, without being completely oppositional. But if you’re going to oppose, hey, you know, do it with some class.

Doug: 20:59 Right. Well, and the thing is that you can use feelings are really good when you’re trying to convince people. I mean, if I can get, if I can make you feel a different way, then I can go ahead and convince you to my point. But when I’m in, when I’m in opposition, I’m with you. I, I like to have facts. Um, in a religious context. I was, I was once late for teaching a Bible study. I mean, keep in mind, I was traveling 45 minutes to get to this church and the elder pulled me aside and said, “It’s disrespectful for you to be late.” And I thanked him very much and then went and taught the class, went home, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Came back the next week. And I said, uh, I pointed out to scripture where Saul had ah… where Samuel had arrived late and Saul had already sacrificed. And I pointed that out to him who got in trouble? Samuel, the guy who was late? Or Saul the guy who went ahead and he went “Point taken.” And he apologized because I gave him the facts, right? So I was oppositional to my elder without actually being nasty about it.

Leon: 21:57 Okay. So, so key point is a level of courtesy, that you can be courteous at the same time you’re being oppositional. Um, I liked the point about data. I also think that, and, and you are both going to be shocked that I’m the one saying this sometimes. Maybe just keep it to yourself. Like I, you know, you can be, you can oppose it. You can feel strongly about it, but unless it is a hill to die on, which we’ll talk about in a minute, maybe sometimes it’s like, yeah, I don’t agree with this, but it’s, it’s part and parcel of this thing that we’re part of, you know, it is the way the company culture runs. It is the, you know, again, there are certain things about Orthodox Judaism I can never, will never change. And so it’s just, it’s there. If someone asks my opinion, absolutely, I will share with them some of how I feel. But at a certain point, again, it’s not going to change it, so don’t, don’t dwell on it either.

Josh: 22:58 I have a great story about this. So I, I grew up in small town Ontario and the town next to my town. Um, there was a great rivalry between the two high schools and there was a catholic high school and a public high school, but great rivalries between these two small towns and southern Ontario. I moved out here to Prince Edward Island. And, uh, you know, I get on Twitter and I am talking with some people and they realize that I’m, I’m from that area. And this guy says, “O, I grew up in this town.” And I’m like, “Oh, that’s weird. I grew up in THIS town.” He’s like, “Oh, I wonder if we knew each other?” Cause we’re about the same age. And as we started to explore, we realize that we were different in almost every way. Of course, you know, he was from THAT town and I was from the town I was. I grew up Mormon. He grew up, reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is, you know, the, an offshoot religion and everything. Everything that we talked about on Twitter, we, uh, we opposed and we would clash all the time. But I know this is gonna sound crazy and you’re gonna think I’m nuts. But we almost always would get to the point where I would say, hey “Dave, I don’t think we’re going to agree.” Or he would say, “Hey, Josh, I don’t think we’re going to agree. That’s cool. You know, I, I’m, I’m okay with the fact that we don’t agree.” And we would just leave it at that and it’s, um, it’s allowed us to maintain a rather friendly relationship. I wouldn’t even say it’s just cordial. I would say it’s a friendly relationship, um, especially as I’ve gone through my own faith transition. So I think it’s really important that we, that we learn how to have that opposition, um, while still maintaining our humanity.

Leon: 24:35 The other thing that I want to point out is understanding the context of opposition. I mean, we’ve been talking about it from a very personal standpoint, which is, you know, “I oppose x or y”, but when you’re on the other side of it, somebody is opposing you. Um, it’s important to understand that sometimes they’re not opposing it because they hate you or they hate this or you’re wrong or you’re bad. That there’s a lot of reasons. I mean, Josh, you talked about, um, you know, being, you’ve talked before about being devil’s advocate and you know, just sort of pushing on an idea. Um, and I think that that’s true. Sometimes people do that, but just like some people have a very dry sense of humor and you can’t tell that they’re joking. Sometimes they have, for lack of a better term, a dry sense of, of opposition. And I think that sometimes when we’re in that opposite heel situation, and I’ll, I’ll make it both personal and external, right? If someone’s opposing, you just consider the fact that they may be coming from a different place than just “This sucks and I hate it.” And at the same time when you’re opposing, clarifying, “I am not saying that I hate this project, I hate this tool, I hate this, you know, whatever it is. I’m saying this one thing I need to challenge to make sure it’s as strong and solid as it possibly can be.” You know, and, and again, I’ve seen people respond so wonderfully when, when you tell them that’s what you’re doing.

Doug: 25:53 I on the other end have done this in some corporate situations where politics reigned and have found that that is less than welcome.

Leon: 26:03 I, and I think a lot of our listeners probably feel the same way. Like you do have to understand your audience, you do have to understand your situation. No doubt.

Doug: 26:12 And unfortunately with my personality, let’s just say that there are jobs that I probably would still have if I were not me.

Leon: 26:21 Okay. We should, which does take us to the last thing that I wanted to hit on today, which was, um, when you can’t let it pass. When, when there’s something that you oppose and it’s, it is basically a non negotiable. So what’s that like? Do you have any examples? What do you do about that?

Josh: 26:42 You want go for it, Doug? I have a story, but it’s a little long, so

Doug: 26:46 You go for yours.

Josh: 26:47 All right. All right. Um, so when I started my faith transition in the spring of 2018 one of the things that I began exploring was the position of the LDS church on blacks in the priesthood. So for, for historical context, up until 1978, no man who was of African descent was able to hold the priesthood. So that meant that they, you know, they couldn’t be leaders in any congregation and they couldn’t partake of any of the ordinances or administrating of the ordinances, including in their own homes. In the mid 1970s, a guy by the name of Byron Marchant lived in Salt Lake City. He was a, an active white member. He was a well respected, he was a tennis pro and he was also actually employed by the church as a custodian back when the church had custodians that they employed. He also happened to be a scout leader. And, in his particular scout troop, he had two boys that were, were black. These boys were exemplary citizens and he decided that he wanted to make them the scout leaders, troop leaders. At the time though, there was a policy in the church – and Mormonism and the Boy Scouts of America, up until just last year were almost one in the same, especially within the church, you know, they were linked. So Byron decided that he wanted these two young men to, to serve. In this capacity. And so he asked for an exemption to a rule that said that the deacons quorum – and deacons in Mormonism are ages 12 and 13 – so he said, “Look, I know that these boys aren’t the deacons quorum president and the first assistant, but I want them to serve in this capacity. And they said, “Well, no, they’re not the deacons quorum president.” He said, “Yeah, but they’re black. They can’t hold the priesthood. So, um, you know, they are really the best candidates.” And they say, “Yeah, but they’re not the deacons quorum president.” And he said, “I know, I get it. I understand how this works.” Um, and it became a huge thing for, for Byron Marchant and he started to actively oppose. And by actively oppose, I mean like holding up signs outside of the church headquarters in Salt Lake. And it culminated in October of 1978. Byron Marchant… during the semiannual general conference there is a sustaining of church leaders. It’s the law of common consent where if anything is going to be accepted by the entire church, it has to be put forward. Everyone has to vote. Most of the votes are unanimous. Byron voted opposed and he was the first to vote opposed, I would say, in like 80 years. It was, it was, “Oh my goodness, someone voted opposed.” Byron, shortly thereafter it was ex-communicated. If you don’t remember what excommunication is, he was kicked out of the church, had all of his rights privileges taken away with regards to Mormonism. In June of 1978, um, the church reversed its ban on giving black people the Priesthood, which means that these two young boys could have been the deacons quorum president and first assistant and have served in that capacity. Sometimes when we are standing in a position of opposition, we hope that people are going to acquiesce to our demands. But like Byron Marchant and many people, whether it’s religious or IT, sometimes our opposition has unintended consequences. And, and just as a side note, my father is the one who taught me about being true to yourself. My father has left a number of jobs much like you and Doug because he was morally opposed to things that the company was doing. And my father is one of the most upstanding and truthful men that I know. But taking that stance caused him a lot of financial and mental anguish because it meant not being the breadwinner for our family. He lost his job and, spent time on employment. So yeah, you just, you can’t pick your consequences, right. We teach our kids that, but sometimes you just have to, even though you don’t know what’s going to happen, you just have to say no.

Speaker 1: 31:16 So, uh, just to, to wrap it up into nice, neat little bow, I think that for everyone listening, you know, being in opposition to the larger part, again, you like the most of larger part, but there’s just these pieces. I think this is an integral skill that we as a people of faith, people who are part of, you know, ball clubs, people who are a part of, you know, boating communities, people who are a part of IT, the IT world. I think this is an integral skill to, to think about and to build. Um, you know, how to be this, uh, maybe a minority opinion, a strongly held, but minority opinion without being subversive, without setting up whisper campaigns, without being, you know, maliciously compliant. Um, it’s something that we all need to think about. Like how would I go about doing this in a way that I’d be comfortable looking at myself in the mirror in the morning when I did it?

Doug: 32:08 Thanks for making time for us this week. To hear more of Technically Religious visit our website,, where you can find our other episodes, leave us ideas for future discussions and connect to us on social media.

Josh: 32:22 After all that, I think we can all agree…

Doug: 32:25 no, we can’t!

Leon: 32:25 wait, what?

Doug: 32:27 Sorry, I just got a little carried away.



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